How to Keep Your DEI Policies Moving Forward with Edelman’s Faith McIver and Mission Partners’ Nimra Haroon
About This Episode
The Supreme Court's decision on affirmative action sent shockwaves through institutions across America, leaving many wondering about the future of Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DEI) initiatives. Is DEI dead? Or is it simply evolving?
On this episode of Mission Forward, Carrie Fox dives into this complex landscape with communications experts Nimra Haroon and Faith McIver. Nimra, a cultural strategist and communications manager for Mission Partners, and Faith, Senior DEI Manager at Edelman, unpack the nuances of recent legislation and its impact on the workplace. They dissect the tension between a widespread commitment to DEI values and the growing anxieties around legal risks.
This isn't just a legal issue; it's a communication challenge. Carrie, Nimra, and Faith explore how companies are responding to criticism and offer actionable strategies for moving forward. They delve into the critical distinction between "risky" and "safe" DEI practices, providing a framework for organizations to navigate this uncertain terrain.
This conversation goes beyond buzzwords and platitudes. It's a pragmatic and insightful discussion about building truly inclusive workplaces that benefit everyone. Tune in to discover how to keep DEI initiatives alive and thriving in a post-affirmative action world.
Links & Notes
Ditch the DEI Speak • Finding the Words
Advancing DEI Initiative • Meltzer Center for Diversity, Inclusion, and Belonging
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Carrie Fox:
Hi, there and welcome to the Mission Forward Podcast. I'm Carrie Fox, your host and CEO of Mission Partners. So I am really excited for what we will be sharing with you today and for the next several weeks on this podcast. As you may know, we recently hosted our 10th Annual Mission Forward Live Event in partnership with the Chronicle of Philanthropy. And the speakers we're incredible. We talked about and broke down so many of the issues that you are facing today, with practical tips and tools to help you move your mission forward.
One of those sessions was asked for specifically by this community. And so, I'm thrilled to be able to bring it to you here on the podcast today. In today's conversation, I'll introduce you to Nimra Haroon and Faith McIver, two communications experts who have been steeped in making sense of how to keep DEI initiatives moving forward in your company or nonprofit. Following the Supreme Court's affirmative action rulings and quite a bit of increased complexity around all of the state-specific rulings that have happened since that time.
In this episode, we are going to share how companies are responding and what you can do to keep your equity, inclusion, and diversity commitments intact. Stay tuned for a fantastic conversation and I'll see you on the other side.
So we're going to start. I gave very quick intros, really just your title. So I want you to share a bit more about each of you. Nimra, we'll start with you and then we'll move to Faith. It would take a minute or so and share a bit of background.
Nimra Haroon:
Yeah. Happy to. Well, as Carrie said, I'm just so delighted to be a part of this team and this conversation. I really consider myself a cultural strategist and a purpose-based communicator. And I think I work at that sweet spot of both of those paths. I think about my own purpose as helping others find their own. And while I don't have DEI in my title, I think my lived experience, as well as bringing a range of analyses to clients to the issues that we're in, that we're experiencing every day, allows me to do exactly that. So I got a chance to meet Faith in our grad school program. And she and I have had careers that took different pathways. But at the core of this, this is a topic that we get to talk about and that we bond over. So I'm excited for the conversation today.
Carrie Fox:
Excellent. And Faith, welcome.
Faith McIver:
Thank you for having me here today. Again, my name is Faith McIver. I currently serve as the senior DEI manager at Edelman, which is one of the largest PR and marketing agencies in the world. We do a lot of work with clients focused on communications, public affairs, and brand building. But in my role, I primarily focus on our internal DEI work where I lead our Global ERG operations, as well as inclusive marketing efforts, and external DEI partner engagements. I also serve as a subject matter expert on behalf of our clients when requested. So I'm a bit of a Jill of All Trades there.
But I'm proud to have spearheaded initiatives like Edelman's first Virtual Educator Summit, our Global Week of Belonging. And also, the DEI-focused podcast, Authentic 365, which we're hoping to relaunch in the coming year or so. And so, also, just a little bit of background. Before joining Edelman, I also worked at another agency called Hill & Knowlton Strategies where I primarily focused on crisis communications and public affairs on behalf of clients. And so, I have experience with large organizations such as AT&T and VMware. But also, smaller nonprofits such as the Marine Corps Scholarship Foundation. So I'm a Jill of All Trades in comms and marketing is what I like to say.
Carrie Fox:
And there's no way that Nimra and I can ask you everything we want in 20 minutes, but we are so grateful for your time and your expertise, Faith. Thanks for being with us. Nimra, I'm going to start with you and then we're going to turn over to Faith.
Nimra, as you know, and perhaps some other folks who are here today, I wrote a piece a few weeks ago about DEI and it was called Ditch the DEI Speak. It gained a lot of support, but it also gained some criticism for my suggestion to ditch the DEI speak. Now, that was not a call to ditch DEI. It was a call to ensure that the language does not get in the way of progress, right? Because we've come way too far to go back.
In some ways, I think we will talk quite a bit about how this is a communications issue. But it is much more, certainly, than a communications issue. We certainly need to know first and understand some of the legislation, as best as we can. So we can determine how we move forward. So Nimra, I'd like you to break down a little bit about the nuances of the legislation and help us make some sense of these rulings.
Nimra Haroon:
Yeah. Absolutely. So I'm going to give what is a very broad overview of the situation. But I think it's helpful context to frame the conversation for today. So last summer, if we rewind back to June of 2023, the Supreme Court of the United States ruled that race-based affirmative action programs and college admissions violated the Equal Protection Clause of the 14th Amendment. So that was the ruling that was made in the Students in Fair Admission versus Harvard University case that many of us might remember, that we saw on the news.
And so, this decision affected university admissions, not workplace DEI. So I think folks might be wondering, "Well, that was about colleges. Why are we talking about an attack on DEI?" And there was huge implications of that court case, on what we're seeing now across Workplace DEI. And so, what has happened as a result of that court case is that anti-DEI activists interpreted that decision, the subsequent litigation that came. And generally, what we see to be the SCOTUS majority right now that's sitting, to be pretty hostile toward race conscious diversity efforts.
And so, since that decision, we've seen anti-DEI lawsuits increased. Conservative activists are scrutinizing these practices using that court case decision as the foundation, for what we now see as a wide attack on workplace DEI. And so, Carrie, like you mentioned, there's over hundreds of lawsuits that have been filed across organizations. We're seeing widespread budget cuts in philanthropy, in nonprofits, academic, corporate budgets. And so, the situation has been pretty widespread now.
Carrie Fox:
And it gets even more complicated when you look at the state's attorney generals, right? It seems like every single one of them has a different view on this when you look at it through the state's lens. But there is something that is still coming through very strongly. And this is, Faith, where we're going to turn to you, is the position that business is taking on its commitment to racial justice. So your firm, Faith, Edelman, conducted special research to look at the state of business and its commitment. And I want you to tell us a bit about what you found.
Faith McIver:
Yeah. Thank you for that. So just for some background in case folks on the call aren't familiar with Edelman. Edelman has been measuring trust through its Annual Trust Barometer report for more than 20 years. The study really looks at trust across four major or key institutions, including government, media, business, and NGOs. And the research is used to help shape conversations, drive outcomes, and inspire actions for our clients as well as the communities we serve.
So beyond that annual report, Edelman also releases special reports throughout the year on a range of topics to further enrich and take a deeper look at those issues. And so, in July of this year, we published our fifth Business and Racial Justice or BRJ Study. Which examines the evolving public discourse and institutional response to race and racial justice, since the firm began tracking that specific nuance in May 2020, which was actually released weeks after George Floyd's murder. So honestly, to ground us in today's conversation, I am going to read a few specific points from the report just before I go into a few key actions. So just bear with me on some stats.
Carrie Fox:
Good. Thanks.
Faith McIver:
Of course. So one, we're seeing that 71% of employees trust their employer to take the right actions on racial injustice over government, media, and NGOs. And 62% believe their employer is already doing well in this area. So that means that the work that we're seeing organizations commit to is, in fact, something that employees want to see and be part of.
Second, the demand for diversity programs in the workplace has surged. Increasing by nine points since 2022 and returning to its 2020 peak. So again, that same interest and emphasis in DEI that we saw post-George Floyd's murder and the social reckoning that we saw across the globe. Honestly, that same interest is what we're seeing right now. And 60% of Americans say that an inclusive work culture, with a strong diversity program is essential for attracting and retaining them as employees.
And then, finally, respondents are twice as likely to say their perception of workplace diversity programs has improved, rather than declined in the last three to five years. So really reflecting about what those points mean, I think it's really clear. You said it at the top, Nimra has said it, but the work of DEI is working and people want to see and be part of that work.
Carrie Fox:
We talked earlier today with Sarah Schwimmer at B Lab and we started that conversation talking about trust. So many things stuck with me from this report. But the piece that stuck with me is the difference between how employees trust their employers to do the right thing versus how little they trust government to do the right thing. I don't know if that number has changed, if the increase in business is actually growing, but I thought that that was really interesting. That there is quite a bit of trust there.
Faith McIver:
Yeah. And also, what we're seeing is that the most trusted voices, honestly, are peers and not someone in the C-suite or someone's direct manager. So when someone is learning something from their peer, even how you're having this conversation with Nimra and I today, they are more likely to be moved into a belief behavior and that's also noted in this year's stress report.
Carrie Fox:
Mm-hmm. So this gets to the tension, Faith. So here's my next question for you, right? So we know, as we started at the top, that this is very complicated and confusing. But as Nimra said so clearly, it really was focused on higher education and education. However, we see quite a few businesses pulling down their DEI initiatives, pulling back resources on them.
Now, you've just said, businesses are being trusted to do this work. They're seeing the impact, they know it works, but they're at this tension point. They're trying to figure out, how do we do it and how do we address the criticisms, potentially, that are coming our way?
So I'd love you to share some of the actions that companies can take to address that criticism, because we know that it is happening. We hear it from our clients who are trying to determine how do they answer questions they're getting about their DEI programs. Often, from a third party who doesn't have much of a stake in the work, but they're getting the criticisms. So what do they do about it? So share some of those actions that companies can take to address the criticisms they're receiving.
Faith McIver:
Yeah. For sure. And honestly, Carrie, first, I want to say and note that not all criticism is bad. Of course, we know that constructive criticism highlights those areas for improvement, where we can really advance efforts by incorporating those diverse perspectives. Whether it be from skeptics or naysayers. And really, since DEI isn't a one size fit all model, I think it's helpful for people to be mindful of that as well.
So some of the things that, I think, organizations can do. Number one, we've seen this work well, but starting with conducting a landscape assessment of what is happening in your business or within your organization. Like any strategy, it's really important to understand where you've been, to know where you're going. And that assessment will enable your business to track, evaluate, and adapt your initiatives effectively grounded in data. That assessment also supports in identifying gaps to understand the risk that also help mitigate against those legal challenges.
Additionally, ensuring that you embed DEI across your organization and expand your inclusion initiatives. It's really important to be mindful of the intersectionality at play within all of us. None of us are monolithic and your diversity programs, as well as communication, should be meaningfully engaging audiences across different dimensions. One example that I love to share is the example around the curb cuts in sidewalks. The dip at the end of the sidewalks were not always there. And it was only after several years of vocal advocacy, and specifically one class that is being disabled veterans, that the curb cuts became mandated across our nation. And now, we all benefit from them. Whether you're on a skateboard, a bicycle, you're pushing a stroller down the street, that is DEI at work. That is a perfect example of how one benefit for one specific class or protected group also benefits our entire community who need it most.
And then, the last thing, I think, I would share is just recognizing that DEI is everyone's responsibility. It doesn't fall on the shoulders of one DEI practitioner or one group of people that's focused on this work. But once we get into the habit that DEI is part of a behavior that can be so ingrained in our personal values, that I think it would be strange if people actually don't consider the implications of not supporting DEI.
Carrie Fox:
Right. DEI done well is really business at its best, right? It's just embedded into the culture, though it has to be intentional. And I love that you started first by saying, "All criticism and critique isn't bad. It actually could make it better." I know there are folks who are saying, "I want to do this work, but I need to reduce my risk," right? It's a matter of fact. We know people are thinking that. So I want us to take that on. Understanding the difference between what is seen as risky and what is seen as safe in the legal landscape, right? So knowing that the new Edelman research shows most employees and employers are committed to DEI values, I'd love you to break down, for the audience, what forms of DEI are considered risky and what forms are considered safe.
Nimra Haroon:
An important grounding point before we get into risky or safe is that the most riskiest thing to do is to not engage in DEI, period. Because if you, as an organization, are not thinking about your DEI, regardless of the legal landscape, what you're doing is putting your employees at risk. Employees with certain identities more likely to experience discrimination, bias, less likely to be recruited, retained, promoted, etc. So as such, an organization that refuses or retracts DEI practices is actually more, not less, likely to then be sued from an employee. So it is safe to engage in DEI.
I think it's smart and pretty strategic for us to be having this conversation, because we know what the SCOTUS makeup is right now. We know that there's some practices that are safer versus some that are riskier. And so, I can break some of that down. There was an incredible article that was published in the Harvard Business Review, so I'm not going to take credit for this breakdown.
But I'll start with the risky piece of it. And if we think about some forms of DEI being riskier, think about three P's. So that first P is that it confers a preference. That means that some individuals are treated more favorably than other individuals. Preference is then given to a protected group of people. So by protected, I mean a characteristic that is protected in the Equal Protection Clause like race, sex, gender, sexual orientation, so on and so forth. And then, that third P is that that preference relates to a palpable benefit. So they are then receiving a job, a promotion, access to training, some additional funding. There is something tangible and palpable that they get to show for.
So if those are the three risky P's, then let's contrast that with what is considered safe. At its core, any DEI practice that is universal in its application, as in that it's not only benefiting some groups over others, is within the legal confines. So that will remain safe. I think I'll give you three examples of that. So one is consider leveling the field versus lifting some groups over others. What I mean by leveling is that policies that are going to be applicable and benefit everybody, similar to what Faith is saying about these sidewalk curbs. Policies that are going to benefit everybody but are going to especially benefit people on the margins the most. So we think about pay transparency, flexible work arrangements, inclusive medical leave, parental leave. Things like that, these are examples of policies that disproportionately impact people with systemically marginalized identities but actually apply to everybody.
Number two is, I was saying, a protected characteristic. So let's look at character instead of characteristics. So one example of this is rather than basing some kind of benefit based on a protected characteristic, you can think about inviting that applicant to then reflect on their identity and how that identity has affected their life. We've done that at Mission Partners with our own programming. And this is permitted by the Supreme Court because that applicant is then going to be assessed on their experiences or attributes as an individual. Not on the basis of their group identity. And in that last contrast, I mentioned palpable benefits. We've been saying this. We want to look at policies and benefits that serve a diverse workplace overall, rather than affecting one individual or one group's benefits or employment opportunities.
Carrie Fox:
Nimra, so well said and you broke that down so well. I know we're going to be sharing a bit in the chat. But this will certainly be one of the sessions today that I know folks will find value in getting that recap from what you just outlined there, Nimra.
Somehow, we only have four minutes. So we're going to go to one last question and maybe both of you can just weigh in on this one, but takeaways and recommendations. So I would like for each one of you to share a few recommendations. Nimra, you just started to do that. So we'll pick back up on what you've just started to share, how organizations can keep DEI programs and practices moving forward without undue risk? So Faith, if you want to start or Nimra, you want to keep going, I'd love to hear from you.
Nimra Haroon:
The thought is fresh. I'll go ahead and start. I'll tell you that this work, at its core, is about building workplaces with best practices that serve humanity. It's about eliminating inequality. It's about driving equity. But we are talking about making the best workplace for all of us. And so much of what people are getting tripped over is the language here.
I mean, things like revisiting your compensation charts, looking at team hierarchy, looking at your feedback culture, conflict resolution processes in a workplace. I mean, these are all things that apply to DEI, but these are really workplace best practices. And so long as we're only taming it with this narrative of, "This is a DEI practice," I mean, we are going to fail ourselves. We have to see this work beyond the language that it is couched under and we need to see that these actions have to transcend the words. I mean, if we were playing a game of Taboo and could not say the words diversity, equity, and inclusion, we need to be able to drive this work forward. Call it allyship, cultural competence. Just bettering your workplace. I mean, you can use just about any word in the book, the actions are what matter here.
Faith McIver:
To build on that, I really think Nimra listed a slew of meaningful points. And I think the only thing I would add, really, is having the data to back up your commitments and actions. Again, I'll reiterate the need for that assessment. It can be really key for ensuring that both employees and consumers understand why certain initiatives are being implemented. And I think there's a real risk of continued critique from employees, questioning whether a company's actions are genuine or merely a part of a marketing strategy. And that is what can erode trust, if you're not building that transparency and adopting those consistent communication approaches. So I think that's the part that I will land the plane on.
Carrie Fox:
So I'm going to make another connection back to an earlier session when Bridget was speaking with Sarah Schwimmer and she was talking about how there are plenty of businesses who go out and get their benefit. Benefit LLC or whatever it happens to be, but they become a benefit organization. There's a big difference, becoming a benefit organization and becoming a B Corporation. As she said, it's just not enough. Anyone can say, "This is our commitment." Not everyone is seeing it through. And so, it really is how businesses are living this work and embedding it in what they do. And holding themselves accountable and being transparent in the process.
One example, should you find value in it, is Mission Partners recently re-released its Equity Action Plan. You can find it on our site. We update it once a year. We review it. We make sure we're holding ourselves accountable to what we set out to do. The work is hard. On every level, the work is hard. But the work is worth it is what I, certainly, am taking away from Faith and Nimra.
We came in just on time there. And as I noted, there's just so much that I would love to continue to dive in and perhaps, we can have a part two of this conversation on the podcast in a few months. But Faith, thank you so much for being with us. Nimra, thank you for being with us and sharing both of your excellent insights today.
Nimra Haroon:
Thank you.
Carrie Fox:
That brings us to the end of another episode of Mission Forward. If you like what you heard today, I hope you'll stop right now and give this show a 5-star rating wherever you are listening to this podcast. Maybe even forward it to a friend who you think would enjoy today's conversation. And of course, check out the show notes for all of the links referenced in today's show.
Mission Forward is produced with the support and wisdom of Pete Wright and the TruStory Production team, as well as the wonderful Sadie Lockhart of Mission Partners. You can learn more about our work over at missionforward.us. And of course, reach out to me anytime at carrie@mission.partners. Thanks for tuning in today, friend. And I'll see you next time.
